The reason, Jim, I became an architect, or I wanted to be an architect was simply because I was an engineer first. And being an engineer, I had lots of good jobs up in the woods and in very interesting projects, but I got a little tired of that and I decided I better get back to the city. And I rationalized it to the point where I figured that buildings were built in cities and not in a rural environment, so I decided then to study architecture. And my road to 苹果淫院 was kind of a varied one because I had applied when I was on a project up in the North of Canada doing engineering work, I had applied to Harvard. And I was accepted by Harvard and fine, they gave me all the credits that I had applied for from the engineering side. And I just didn鈥檛 get down that fall. I missed registration. So I had to lay off for another year and in the meantime, I broke a leg at Tremblant, and I arrived at 苹果淫院 on a cane in the fall, in that particular fall.
[1:14:28]
The fall of 鈥�57, I guess, yeah.
I guess 鈥�57, yeah. So then I can always remember the- I didn鈥檛 understand the structure of 苹果淫院 because the Faculty of Science had a department of engineering and a school of architecture and I had to deal with George Jolly to try and get my credits. And I think one of my finest days at 苹果淫院 was when I was sitting across the table from George Jolly, High Heels Jolly, with his cane on his desk just to defend himself against any irate students, I was persistent in saying, 鈥淲ell, why won鈥檛 you accept my credits? They鈥檙e from an accredited school of engineering in Canada and all of it are engineering credits鈥�. And in frustration, I said, 鈥淲ell, what schools do you recognize?鈥� And I said, 鈥� Would you recognize 苹果淫院, or would 苹果淫院 recognize Harvard or MIT, for example?鈥� He said, 鈥淵es, of course we would鈥�. I said, 鈥淔ine.鈥� And I dug in my pocket and I passed him the letter from Harvard and he just blushed and, you know, he turned my way and he said, 鈥淲ell, I guess you got your credits!鈥� So that鈥檚 how I arrived at 苹果淫院.
[2:30:09]
Now tell us, I guess, we would like to know a little bit about your- you spent five years at 苹果淫院, of course.
No, I was there four years.
Four years, oh, okay. I guess I was there five years. So you joined the year- well anyhow, it doesn鈥檛 make any difference. What about some of the professors that you remember that probably influenced you? Is there anyone in particular?
Yeah, Zippy Schreiber was always a very good friend of mine. And he helped me through- remember the Architectural Daily News or whatever we called it? And you know, up in one corner there鈥檇 be the weather and the other corner, there鈥� d be something else. And I can always remember- well, I was still running an engineering practice in Halifax. And I used to fly to Halifax almost every week. On the top corner of the publication it said, 鈥淔linn is gone again鈥�. And I can remember coming back, my thesis year coming back from Halifax, on the flight, and I got to know the airline cabin crews pretty well because I was flying so often. And I had a car at the airport so I asked this young lady if she would like a drive downtown. And she said, 鈥淲ell鈥�, she said, 鈥淚鈥檓 not going directly home. I鈥檓 going to Professor Schreiber鈥檚 because he is having a pre-Lenten party鈥�. So I said, 鈥淥h, I know a Professor Schreiber!鈥�
So you went along!
I wasn鈥檛 invited but I got there and I remember the next day, Zippy said to me- you know why we call him Zippy? Zipatone.
Yeah, Zipatone.
So he said to me the next morning, he said, 鈥淵ou know鈥�, he said, 鈥淚t鈥檚 too bad you鈥檙e not going to graduate this year鈥�. And I said, 鈥淲ell, why is that?鈥� And he said, 鈥淲ell, you haven鈥檛 even posted your theme for your thesis yet鈥�. And I said, 鈥淲ell, it will be in this afternoon!鈥� And I can always remember, boy, I went to work real diligently then. And so I did. But I remember the last night before we posted the thesis, he was on his hands and knees up in the planning department, up over the School of Architecture, on his hands and knees helping me cut out a model because he figured a model would be better for presentation, because I was doing a courthouse for Halifax. And so we worked all night together and so he was a great guy. Another thing I liked about him was his car. He had that Aston Martin.
[4:49:00]
Oh yeah, the Aston Martin. I still see him, as a matter of fact.
Oh do you?
He鈥檚 still around, yeah.
Well, he, no he was a great guy and, yeah, so-
How about some of the others? I mean, do you remember Doug Shadbolt?
Yeah, Doug Shadbolt was maybe the strongest professional influence I had because he was supposed to be my professional advisor. But at that time, he was negotiating a position to come to Halifax. So I came- I helped him get his job in Halifax. So- we had a great rapport, and I knew Doug quite well when he moved down here. So he was one of the mainstays and he apologized for not being on hand to do, you know. That鈥檚 when I got in touch with John Schreiber. Then he was more closely related to me than he was, so that鈥檚 the way that was.
[5:37:03]
Do you remember, I鈥檓 thinking of Stuart Wilson? Did he-?
Stuart was such an easy, laid-back guy, you know? And I can always remember a Sketch School in Quebec City. We were somewhere in the old town and he said, 鈥淔linn, you鈥檝e got to get more texture in your sketches鈥�. And I said, 鈥淲ell, how do you do that?鈥� And he got down on his hands and knees on the sidewalk and he used his thumb to rub against the concrete underneath the paper. And he said, 鈥淣ow there鈥檚 texture!鈥� So those are the things, the crazy things that I remember.
[6:12:28]
What about your- one professor who has probably had influence on some people is Peter Collins? How is he in your eyes?
Well Peter was the demon in my eyes, only because I鈥檓 a, you now, quote-unquote an uneducated engineering coming into a, you know, sophisticated school of architecture. And I was supposed to be caught up in Histories of Architecture. One year, I did three Histories of Architecture.
Wow.
In fact, the year The Bounty was launched down in Lunenburg, I left- I went to the launching and then I went directly to the airport and flew to Montreal and had to do two visual and oral exams in Histories of Architecture. I was- I had been up for at least three nights and I didn鈥檛 know- you know, I had so many pictures and so many details in my mind but I did actually get through them all. And I graduated okay with all that stuff behind me.
[7:08:11]
And how about- I鈥檓 thinking of Gordon Webber. Do you remember him at all?
Oh yeah, I knew Gordie, yeah.
He seemed to be one of the people, in hindsight, influenced an awful lot of people. I know when we were going through there, we didn鈥檛 always appreciate him. I guess that鈥檚 what most people said.
He was a very gentle man. I liked him as a personality. But what amazed me the most, Jim, in that what I knew about his is that he designed the seating for the air terminal over in Ottawa. And he was a small man with a deformity but he could still manage to design things that were comfortable for an average-sized person. And I always enjoyed, you know, anything that he designed as far as seating was concerned. Because there鈥檚 a lot of bad seating out there.
[7:55:08]
Oh yeah! Which I had nothing to do with, by the way!
No, no, no, I鈥檓 not saying you did.
I鈥檓 trying to think of names like- was it Hugh Valentine?
No.
Did you have any-? Watson Balharrie?
No.
Okay. Those are professors that gave us Architectural Practice. Do you remember the fellow that used to come in and talk about the business of architecture? One who used to fly- He used to fly down- Watson Balharrie flew down in an airplane from Ottawa and the other fellow used to live on the lakeshore and came in by train. He was a bit of an odd ball. Well that wasn鈥檛 a very good experience.
You know what? In all my years at 苹果淫院, I never had anybody stand before me and tell me anything about business.
Well, maybe because you had already had that course.
No, well, maybe. There was something called Engineering Economy.
[8:40:12]
[Section of tape recorded over]
No, Maureen was always a sweetheart, you know, and she always understood where you were coming from, you know.
She always seemed to have time for everyone. The other person I was interested in was Gerry Tondino. He was around- he was the fellow that gave us the sketching in the course, you know, in the school.
Over at the museum, yeah. And then he used to come for Sketch School at our school, yeah. His daughter was down here two years ago and I had contact with him at that time. As a matter of fact, the last time we had a reunion in Montreal, he was there as I guess it was a staff reception by our class.
Yeah.
And I enjoyed visiting with him at that time. And it was shortly after that his daughter came down here. She was working on something called Black Harbour, which was a TV, a national TV production out of Hubbards, just eight miles up the road here. And so we had her by a couple of times. And he was very kind. He managed to get my daughter, Kirsten, into a Sketch School, or a sketch class that was overloaded with students. And he managed to get her in and she enjoyed doing that. She was taking a fine arts, no a general arts course at 苹果淫院 at the time.
[10:01:07]
I鈥檓 sort of interested in sort of what you did after you graduated. You came back to Halifax, I guess?
I came back here. Well I stayed in- I graduated pre-Expo. And there was a lot of activity in Montreal at the time. I mean, old Sise. He was a great friend. He was the best crit I ever had. He would, you know, would explain why he critted the work in a particular way. And he offered me a job. And I thought about it for a while, but I still came back to Halifax. So I settled in here, and I had to do a period of indenture. And I guess it took me about eight months before the architects would recognize me as a, you know, as a capable person. And they did license me. Two years later I was president of the association, mind you, and I tried to make some changes. The practice of architecture in Nova Scotia, it鈥檚 a small operation. When I came here, we had thirty-five members of the Architect鈥檚 Association in Halifax, for the whole province. And I think at last count it was about two hundred and eighty-five. And that dilution- the marketplace isn鈥檛 that big here. And, of course, along the way, the government found ways to take the work away from the private sector and found ways to take the work away from the private sector and give it either to in-house people or- and then they learned something about competition within the fee structure of architects. And after a while, you know, it gets down to what we have now called P3 schools. That鈥檚 the private sector. Everything is done now on the private side and it鈥檚 all paid for and it鈥檚 all- the government will rent back those schools. But I understand it, the developers are paying about two, two and a half percent for the design. Well I couldn鈥檛- if two and a half percent, Jim, of a six and a half, seven percent fee, everything- there鈥檚 no five percent profit in an architect鈥檚 fee, you know? And so I never could understand that so I backed away from all that. So the marketplace shrunk very deliberately. The people trying to service the requirement expanded exponentially.
[12:17:17]
Yeah, I鈥檝e been told that by just about everybody that I鈥檝e talked to. To me that鈥檚 absolutely crazy.
Yeah and of course the banks when they- through their own stupidity, they realized, you know, all their mistakes in South America and in the mortgage business and all that kind of stuff, so they started to get very tight about things and they, you know, they never understood architects. They never understood how architects get paid, but they have to keep staff, they have to keep space, they have to keep all those things. So when it comes down to the crunch, nobody really understands in the financial side of things how an architect or an engineer functions. Because after thirty-three years, the Royal Bank of Canada dumped me on my head. And I had worked with them; they solicited my business, kept insisting I have more credit line that I really didn鈥檛 want. But you know once you get a larger shoe, you tend to fill it. And that鈥檚 what happened. And then every time the crunch came along, the bad times, in the eighties, they want their money back. It was all demand stuff, you know, demand loans. So they crucified me, really, really. You know that office building I was telling you about earlier on?
Yeah.
You know, I had to sell that to satisfy the bank. But they said, 鈥淲ell so what?鈥� You know? But that鈥檚 fine. But that was all part of my retirement, you know. And everything you tried to do in good times-. And you know, the cycle of architecture is something fierce too because your good year was always the year there was a federal election. Then you had enough work then to get money in to pay off so they were on a level plane again. Then of course, for the next four years, you went downhill. So you鈥檙e in debt by the time they called an election, you know. So I didn鈥檛 like the economics of architecture at all. And I think Derek Drummond鈥檚 uncle, his uncle Dick, Dick Bolton, told me one time, 鈥榗ause he was kind of my father confessor on Sherbrooke Street. And I鈥檇 go into see him. And he鈥檇 say, 鈥淵ou know, Bob, you shouldn鈥檛 practice architecture unless you have independent means鈥�. And that is so damn true.
[14:19:07]
It鈥檚 an interesting comment, isn鈥檛 it?
It is a very interesting comment.
There are very few- there are a few who have done very well because they have found different facets to practice in.
Sure. But down here, our marketplace in Nova Scotia is too small to specialize.
I know.
You almost have to be a generalist. Well then the larger offices always say, 鈥淲ell, he鈥檚 too small. Don鈥檛 give him the work鈥�. And that鈥檚 the competition that I had. And they kept me out of hospital design all my life. I never got a hospital design ever. But I鈥檝e done maybe four hundred beds in nursing- in second, you know, in level-2 care nursing homes. And have done some very successful buildings because we managed to understand how they worked. That was, I guess, part of it. And then we鈥檝e done ten-million-dollar nursing homes, we鈥檝e done five-hundred-thousand-dollar nursing homes, you know, small ones, and those things. I鈥檝e done about thirty-eight schools across the province: high schools, elementary schools. I鈥檝e done a lot of university buildings, test laboratories and things like that that worked out very successfully. But along comes another wave and then, of course, you鈥檙e out of it. So that鈥檚 fine and I appreciate that because something had to move sideways before I got in, so I expect that some young person is going to come along. And then, of course, as things go along, the profession starts to jeopardize your opinions by saying, 鈥淥h, he鈥檚 too old鈥�. I mean, that鈥檚 the next step, you know.
[15:51:21]
One time, you鈥檙e too young.
Yeah, you鈥檙e too young.
Not enough experience. And then you鈥檙e too old.
And then when you have lots of experience, you鈥檙e too old. So I mean, it鈥檚 dog eat dog, I don鈥檛 know, that鈥檚 all.
[16:04:28]
Yeah, Jim, now I鈥檇 just like to say a few words about the School of Architecture and the class that we were. You know, we were about twenty-two, I guess, all together and we were pretty strong. You know, there was a lot of glue in our group and we鈥檝e always stayed together. And we still manage to have our five-year reunions. I see you- I鈥檝e seen you in the summers鈥�
Close to twice a year, yeah.
鈥� about once a year for the last鈥�
At least.
鈥� twenty years, I guess. And those kinds of things. And then to try to keep the 苹果淫院 family alive down here, I worked very closely with the alumni office in Montreal and I was chairman of the branch down here for some twelve years or something like that. And I enjoyed it. But it was great because we kept- you know, the old-timers were the best followers. The young people always wanted to come only to try and find some contacts for business reasons. But the old people were really serious. They enjoyed being there. They were all 苹果淫院s and I think that the 苹果淫院 family- you know, I鈥檓 always proud to say that I鈥檓 a 苹果淫院.
So am I, yeah.
Because I鈥檝e been to three other universities and you know a graduate from different ones but at the same time, 苹果淫院 still stands out in my mind as being the best school. And, of course, I use that because that was my last graduation, which makes me sound younger! So I鈥檓 devious, you know! No, but we have a lot of people down here from 苹果淫院. And they鈥檙e great people and they鈥� ve been around and they鈥檙e very supportive. We have people that will drive in sixty, you know, eighty miles to come to an alumni affair and it鈥檚, you know. But it鈥檚 getting hard to get people out because people don鈥檛 like to spend, you know, for two hours they don鈥檛 want to spend thirty bucks plus all their transportation and everything else and they still have a cash bar, you see? That鈥檚 always the fight, to try and-. And we have a new chairman now and I wish her the very best. She鈥檚 the first lady chairman we鈥檝e had in a long time. And she鈥檚 about her business now of trying to carry on from, you know- 鈥榗ause recently I got, you know and- you know.
[18:21:00]
And another thing too, I would just like to suggest to anybody that might listen to this thing over the years that every architect should do volunteer work. You know, the community needs that kind of work. And I鈥檝e had some special interests in different groups. Last week, they presented me with a plaque for service to the CNIB, twenty-two years service with the CNIB and it鈥� s- that was- no, I鈥檓 sorry, twenty-seven years service with the CNIB and, you know, that鈥檚 quite-
That鈥檚 long. That鈥檚 quite a commitment, yeah.
That鈥檚 a long time. And, you know, but I learned a lot of contacts from that. And that family is just as strong as the 苹果淫院 family. They stay together and they have a common cause. You know, a good education from 苹果淫院 and care for the blind is also-
[19:09:18]
But you perhaps are a rarity because there are not very many younger people practicing architecture today that do very much for the community. That almost applies in any realm of business too. I mean they don鈥檛 make themselves available unless they are working for the Royal Bank or-. Somebody in his own profession, self-employed, is not going to take the time off. Unfortunately, that鈥檚 true.
That鈥檚 true, yeah. Well, the- I think it鈥檚 economic, Jim. I wouldn鈥檛 blame it really on the architect. The poor architect can鈥檛 spend the time to do all these charitable or these, you know, volunteer things, because he needs the time trying to generate business and trying to perform. Because this profession is getting so thin, you know. Then when you come to the- when you鈥� re slowing down at the end of a career, what do you do with a practice? I mean, our liability is unlimited; we go on forever. And I think every school of architecture should get on that bandwagon and try to solve that problem. Because, I mean we can鈥檛- why should we be responsible for thirty years, you know, I mean, no. So that鈥檚 my biggest beef with the- we have to teach the kids more about business in school, we have to find some way to end a practice, unless you want to sell it off, show it to somebody who has nothing and pay him a thousand dollars to take your practice just so that your liability will be gone, you know. And so-.
[20:40:26]
And you certainly don鈥檛 want to wish that you will be gone before your liability is gone, if you know what I mean.
I know, but the liability doesn鈥檛 go when I die.
No, I know.
It goes on to my next generation. And I don鈥檛 like that either.
Yeah. It鈥檚 not a bad life, though.
Oh, I鈥檝e enjoyed it. It鈥檚 been fun. There鈥檚 nothing more pleasing to me than to have a client say, 鈥淏oy, you really did a good job on this one鈥�. And a lot of clients, you know, they don鈥檛 really care because they鈥檙e committees and a committee doesn鈥檛 really respond. But if you have a personal client- I get a lot of satisfaction out of small, residential jobs. Not that I do that many, but I鈥檝e had a lot of people who have responded nicely to me for that reason. But then I鈥檝e done five-million, ten-million-dollar jobs, and they just say, 鈥淲ell, have you sent your last invoice in yet?鈥� So I mean that鈥檚 it.
